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Flame Thrower, Shock Trooper - UNDERPOWERED


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#1 Nod00

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:42 AM

The flame trooper and shock trooper are under powered.

The stats speak for themselves.

Flame Thrower
Shock Trooper

PLEASE DO NOT ARGUE WITH FISSURE IN MIND, THIS GAME IS MORE ABOUT C&C MODE THAN IT IS ABOUT TEAM DEATH MATCH ON A SPECIFIC MAP.
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#2 Pushwall

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:45 AM

The infantry stats have been frozen for almost a year (except purchases) until recently, and they mostly consist of data from 2.0, in which flamethrowers were twice as weak to bullets as they are now. So they are not representative of the flamer's current strength at all.

The only stats that got reset in 2.1.1 were map balance stats, and given how broken unit stats in general have been for most of Gamma, I think they should be reset as well. (Though vehicle purchases are still frozen so vehicle stats would continue to be inaccurate...)

Edited by Pushwall, 10 April 2012 - 06:56 AM.

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#3 iLikeToSnipe

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:49 AM

I'm not too sure about the flamer. But shockie seems to need some tweaking.
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#4 Nod00

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:52 AM

Flamers still die to rifle soldiers...
But you are correct, stats need a reset to better support my argument.

Still, I feel the shock tooper and flamer arent the way they should be. Any comments on this? How do they play for you?

Edited by Nod00, 10 April 2012 - 06:54 AM.

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#5 VERTi60

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:09 AM

The truth is flamer is once again very vulnerable to its own attack, and stills seems to be vulnerable in general to anything (comparing to grenadier which is a cheaper unit but more sturdier). Shocker is the same story if you compare it to rpg.
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#6 trarian

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:13 AM

The truth is flamer is once again very vulnerable to its own attack, and stills seems to be vulnerable in general to anything (comparing to grenadier which is a cheaper unit but more sturdier). Shocker is the same story if you compare it to rpg.


You pay 900 for the shockies, they seems nice on places with enough cover, but they fail on open fields. However, keep in mind soviet has in total 3 very effective anti tank units, one on low-tier, one on medium tier, and one on high-tier. They made volkov even strong against infantry. And what does allied have? one single rocket soldier which I would put in the low-tier category, but some pro's maybe on the medium-tier category. And then we got tanya, which easy could be owned by a volkov or shotgunner. The tanya sucks on close combat versus infantry in a lot of cases, and it could deal almost zero damage versus tanks. I would like to see a tanya with C4 that could kill even the most heavy tanks, but yea it wasn't in red alert, but there also wasn't FPS in red alert.

Or am I the only one who likes these high-tier infantry like volkov? For my feeling there is more not right on the infantry balance, but than again its my opinion, and balance = balance. Balance is made because we use the stuff the way it balances itself and so we can call it balance. So like using tanya only because it wears a deadly C4.
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#7 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:20 AM

They seem solid enough. The Shockie is being worked on, the solution presented sounds good. The flamer does seem kinda vulnerable, but it is better than before when bullets killed it twice as fast - that was clearly underpowered. The first thing that comes to mind is that the flamer has a larger profile, with the tanks on it's back, so he's easier to hit. But I don't even know if thats true.

The flamer kills rifles alot faster than other rifles can, thats for sure, so I don't think he's as underpowered as Nod00 makes him out to be. If the flamethrower misses his first shot, it is usually game over because he's got a long reload time.

@trarian: Tanya can own shotties and kovs just as much as they can own her.

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You know C4, if it was made to deal damage to tanks... I think that would be good! Normal & super C4 being effective against tanks seems logical. Think about the Engie's!

Edited by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr, 10 April 2012 - 08:26 AM.

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#8 Mei Terumi

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:15 AM

Hey hey, i'm in the top 100# at number 74# with the flamer, sweet. But the reason why i think the flamer sucks, is that he is too slow and his rate of fire isn't as good. It's the reason why i always pick the grenadier over him. Not only does he cost 160$ but he runs faster allowing him to dodge attacks but also has a faster fire rate. The shock trooper, im unsure. His primary role is anti vechicle and building. But im do remember him being good against infantry in RA95

Edit: I'm number 23# with the grenade dude :D best infantry in the game imo

Edited by Alucard, 10 April 2012 - 09:16 AM.

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#9 Killing You

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:00 AM

I find it hilarious that my argument with Shocks went in the opposite direction, failed, and then this pops up.

As for the Flamers, I kind of agree. They're tough to use properly, and as far as their flame attack goes, it's on par with, or just above, a Starshina's dragon's breath round, which is cheaper and more effective against infantry and buildings, at least from my observations. The only thing that they have going for them is that they can do pretty nasty damage to vehicles, and even at that it's got a short range compared to the other AT soldiers.

For sure, the Flamer needs quite a bit of tweaking. The Shock Trooper, on the other hand, is fine as is.
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#10 Leonis

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:25 AM

Flamer needs to be invulnerable to his own attacks and make his suicide actualy kill somebody because he's already vulnerable as he is.
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#11 Raapnaap

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:19 PM

The Flamethrower suicide ability is horribly powerfull as it is, it's more likely to receive a nerf than a buff. It might get a bit more armor against bullets however, to make up for the slow movement speed.

As far as the Shock Trooper goes, he is in an uncertain position in the combat chain right now, and overlaps a bit too much with Volkov in that regard. I'll see if I can talk to PA about it, I have some idea's on how to spice the Shock Trooper up.
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#12 Cyberslas

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

I just find it hard to kill things with the suicide and blow myself up with it on accident some times. The flamer can also doulbe as a nice low cost structure buster with good anti-infantry capabilities. :p:

However, the shocky is cool where he's at now in my opinion. He may not be the best anti-infantry unit when against a capable allied soldier, but he chews through tanks, aircraft and structures like nobody's business. Some shocks next to a Mammoth are a force to be reckoned with now that snipers have been thrown out.
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#13 Masterpiece

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:23 PM

flamer underpowered???? are you mad ???

but shokie are realy underpowered !!!
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#14 APB_ICE

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

As far as the Shock Trooper goes, he is in an uncertain position in the combat chain right now, and overlaps a bit too much with Volkov in that regard. I'll see if I can talk to PA about it, I have some idea's on how to spice the Shock Trooper up.

Since you mentioned Volkov's overlapping with the Shock Trooper, and due to the fact that many people feel that Volkov is supposedly inferior to the Shock Trooper, I have a suggestion that I've been meaning to propose:

Remember back in .993, when Volkov only had his single-shot anti-tank cannon (with no super-long reload) and a block of Super C4? I think we should go back to something like that.

Here me out:

-Scrap the tri-shot and shrapnel rounds, and combine the anti-tank round and napalm grenade into a single weapon (anti-tank primary, napalm secondary), with the same rate-of-fire as his current anti-tank cannon.
-Change it so that there's only 1 shot per magazine/clip, and get rid of the 7.5-second reload.
-Double the napalm grenade's damage (or enough to 1-shot basic infantry with splash) to compensate for low rate of fire.
-Replace his Engineer C4 with Super C4.

Overall, this would make Volkov stronger (and much simpler to use), and clearly superior to Shock Troopers, but still not overpowered for his cost (Lack of tri-shot would make him weaker against buildings, but Super C4, buffed napalm grenades, and lack of a long reload-period more than compensates for this). If compensation is needed, give Tanya her auto-fire back (She should have it back anyway, at least a slow auto-fire like the Beretta and Makarov have).

Edited by APB_ICE, 10 April 2012 - 08:40 PM.

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#15 Chronojam

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:38 PM

You've given me an interesting idea, based off another idea for another unit (actually a tank).
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#16 APB_ICE

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:41 PM

You've given me an interesting idea, based off another idea for another unit (actually a tank).

Please, do tell. I am curious now.
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#17 Chronojam

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:09 PM

Well I did a quick test game by myself and it seems to work decently enough, but now we'll need to see what the testers think.
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#18 Ididyamom69

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:20 PM

Since you mentioned Volkov's overlapping with the Shock Trooper, and due to the fact that many people feel that Volkov is supposedly inferior to the Shock Trooper, I have a suggestion that I've been meaning to propose:


Who on earth thinks that? lol. Except against aircraft, Volkov is superior to the shock trooper in every imaginable attribute and role (AT, AI, siege, base assault, base defense, survivability, speed). The shock trooper is just a cheaper version of Volkov right now, hence why I felt like the Shock Trooper should lose some range in exchange for much stronger anti-infantry while Volkov should lose his C4 but gain more range on his main AT cannon so that each unit has more refined roles that I explained in another post.

As for flamers, they are situational units. They are weak in the open field 1v1's yet powerful in masse and if they can acquire some sort of terrain advantage (height, LOS) they can 1v1 most infantry. Their slow speed and low health, however, make it difficult for them to get into a favorable position. They are also weak against vehicles, thus making other infantry more attractive in vehicle combos for TL 2 and 3 since Kapitans are pretty much better in the open field against infantry and pretty much as good (if not better due to accuracy against high speed allied units) against vehicles while also being cheaper. He just doesn't have much of a role right now since some other infantry does his job but better:

Want to infiltrate enemy structures and do lots of damage? Shotties are cheaper, faster, more durable, and have better DPS against buildings.
Want to get a splash unit that is effective at fire and forget? Grenadiers again are FAR faster, cheaper, more durable, and yes even longer ranged.
Want to get a well rounded anti-infantry unit to pair with your vehicle that can still do decently against allied vehicles? Kapitans are accurate, deadly, durable, cheaper, and longer ranged while still maintaining decent damage against vehicles.

Honestly the only situation where I think the flamer is actually better than other infantry at is base defense or countering the Medic. His splash, insta-burn, and self-destruct make him the best unit to defend against a Tanya or medics with. Again, it's not that he's a bad unit really, he's like the jack of all trades. He does ok against light vehicles (if he can hit them :P), he does ok against buildings, he does ok at base defense, he does ok in the field if you know how to use him, its just those kind of jack of all trades master of none units never compete well against specialized units.
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#19 APB_ICE

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:03 PM

Since you mentioned Volkov's overlapping with the Shock Trooper, and due to the fact that many people feel that Volkov is supposedly inferior to the Shock Trooper, I have a suggestion that I've been meaning to propose:


Who on earth thinks that? lol. Except against aircraft, Volkov is superior to the shock trooper in every imaginable attribute and role (AT, AI, siege, base assault, base defense, survivability, speed). The shock trooper is just a cheaper version of Volkov right now, hence why I felt like the Shock Trooper should lose some range in exchange for much stronger anti-infantry while Volkov should lose his C4 but gain more range on his main AT cannon so that each unit has more refined roles that I explained in another post.

Lose his C4? Are you crazy?

Also, Volkov's main weakness is his 7.5 second reload-period, while the Shock Trooper has a consistent 1 shot every couple of seconds.

Here's my idea:

-Reduce the Shocky's range by 20%, but increase his anti-infantry damage by the same amount.

-Change Volkov according to my proposed idea (Buff the napalm grenade, scrap the tri-shot and shrapnel rounds, combine the AT shell and napalm grenade into a single weapon, reduce capacity to 1 shot per mag', eliminate the long reload-period, replace his Engy C4 with Tanya C4).

Edited by APB_ICE, 10 April 2012 - 10:05 PM.

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#20 Ididyamom69

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:33 PM

No, I'm not. Why do you think he needs a C4? He's been a great and effective unit in the past when he had no C4. All C4 did was make him able to be effective in base assaults, something the Shock Trooper used to do that Volkov didn't. Giving him C4 pretty much took the best role the shock trooper had away from him and gave it to Volkov, while also making him play more like a Tanya which just doesn't feel right for a unit with so many long ranged abilities.

Instead of forcing Volkov into the enemy base with C4, instead he should maintain the role as an AMAZING siege unit and give the base assault role back to shockers (who would also be made better against infantry to facilitate this...). Volkov, with a buffed range on his AT cannon, would be the unrivaled king of tank-slaying, and combined with his grenades and his tri-shot, make him a sturdy long range specialist. Pre-gamma Volkov sucked balls against structures but he was still a good unit. All that was needed was to buff his tri-shot DPS against buildings (which Gamma did) and he was perfect.
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#21 Voe

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:28 PM

I second Ididiyamom. Please don't ruin the volkov. APB Ice is a horrible player with horrible balance ideas and listening to him only brings the game down.
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#22 APB_ICE

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:44 AM

I second Ididiyamom. Please don't ruin the volkov. APB Ice is a horrible player with horrible balance ideas and listening to him only brings the game down.

Please disregard anything that Voe says. He is a troll who hates me for no reason. Also, I'm a great player, so STFU.
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#23 Voe

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:03 AM

Also, I'm a great player, so STFU.

That,
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#24 PointlessAmbler

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:48 AM

Why would you ever perform the intentional suicide attack when you can just shoot at your feet all day and NOT kill yourself?

Also, I don't like the idea of letting Volkov outrange tanks by a huge margin because it used to be annoying as shit to take 300-400 points of damage on a Medium Tank before even having a chance to do any retaliatory damage to a tiny, fast-moving target with a lot of HP.
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#25 Ididyamom69

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:07 AM

Volkov never outranged any vehicle though? I know for sure he had less range than a Medium, and I believe I tested it and he even had (but very slightly) less range than an APC at the time (and no, this wasn't 1.2 where they out ranged coils). Besides, Mediums are an 800 credit AT unit so you shouldn't be expecting them to fare well against an 1800 credit AT infantry unit. Not to mention Phases, though probably losing 1v1 since they wouldn't be able to burst down a Kov, kind of eliminate his range advantage due to their invisibility so a quick burst from the phase + jumping out and finishing him off with your infantry is quite viable.

I do think Rangers could be a viable counter to Kov in vehicle form due to their speed + anti-infantry capabilities (assuming the Gamma turret changes are ever resolved...). If anything why not give him the range but slow down his projectile speed so he has trouble hitting faster vehicles at max range? That would make sure APC's and Rangers would be good counters due to their speed while making Volkov a great medium and even light tank slayer.
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#26 PointlessAmbler

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:34 AM

He could attack you from a range where he was nearly impossible to hit and destroy you without taking a single point of damage or even the threat of taking damage in the old versions. Making his projectile easier to dodge might make a range buff more palatable, but I don't think he needs a big buff especially when we're talking about him in relation to the Shock Trooper.
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#27 Nod00

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

The problem with the Flamer is buildings are always so tight of quarters that he always damages himself. If he didnt damage himself, he would still suicide as a last resort to make sure he took someone down with him. The artillery units are great for clearing enemy infantry such as the flamer and I see no real reason why he cannot have huge resistance to his own attacks. Captains are great for withstand several fireballs and laying on the hurt. A flamer inside your building should hurt a little. A team shouldnt allow flamers inside much like they wouldnt allow tanyas inside. Obviously, the Flamer is cheaper and nowhere as threatening as a tanya. Lower his building damage slowly if he becomes too good indoors... I would rather trade building damage for survivability, so he actually is useful.

With regards to players comments about tanks and such, the flamer doesn't really do any damage to anything other than the artillery units.

Personally, I would like to see the Flame Troopers resistant to Rifles, Pistols, and Shotgun Buck Shot and actually be weaker to Tank Shells, Rockets, Slug Shots, and Machine Guns. This would make him effective against Medics, Shotgun Infantry, Rifle Infantry, Spies, Thiefs, Technicians, and Engineers. What I mean by resistant is take less damage, not immune. Slow moving infantry are really easy to kill with rifle and pistol weapons and by lowering the damage this would help the flamer fulfil his role tremendously.

Edited by Nod00, 11 April 2012 - 01:28 PM.

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#28 Voe

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:52 PM

I think what the problem is is in fact that the captains are overpowered. They are damn impossible to kill.
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#29 Killing You

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:11 PM

I think what the problem is is in fact that the captains are overpowered. They are damn impossible to kill.


Captains? Impossible to kill? HA!

Captains are my best suit as far as Allied infantry go, and still I get fragged all the time, mostly to Starshinas. If ANYTHING is overpowered, really it's the shotgun troopers. A team of two Starshinas or Sergeants WILL destroy a building with their Dragon's Breath rounds in less than a minute, and the fact that CQB is their best suit means that unless they are rushed by at least 3 Captains and fast, the building will be destroyed, or at least severely damaged and vulnerable to attack, power plants being the most popular targets. The only thig that keeps them from being absolutely overpowered is their worthlessness on the open battlefield and against vehicles.

While we're on the subject of Captains/Kaptains, I did notice something very weird. The Kaptain holds his PKM in a very awkward position, with his hand on the magazine box and seemingly with the stock resting on top of his shoulder. That would be extremely uncomfortable in reality, Red Alert universe notwithstanding. I'd imagine that he'd hold his PKM in much the same way that the Captain holds his M60. Anyone else notice this?
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#30 APB_ICE

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:06 PM

While we're on the subject of Captains/Kaptains, I did notice something very weird. The Kaptain holds his PKM in a very awkward position, with his hand on the magazine box and seemingly with the stock resting on top of his shoulder. That would be extremely uncomfortable in reality, Red Alert universe notwithstanding. I'd imagine that he'd hold his PKM in much the same way that the Captain holds his M60. Anyone else notice this?

I actually noticed this when Gamma came out. He appears to hold his PK against his shoulder, instead of at hip-level. Similarly, Rifle Soldiers appear to hold their M-16's/AK-47's at hip-level instead of shoulder-level.
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